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	<title>Comments on: Defining gender</title>
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	<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/</link>
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		<title>By: sarah</title>
		<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/#comment-3875</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sarah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Oct 2013 01:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cisnormativity.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-3875</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are you arguing that gender developed like language? Or as part of the gendered aspects of language? How does this imply that gender is not socially constructed, if it develops out of language? How do you link together word genders (die Kunst, der Mond, das Boot) and their development with the complex development of human genders? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, so I suppose I will have to see more of your path of argumentation to determine whether I agree with this theory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you arguing that gender developed like language? Or as part of the gendered aspects of language? How does this imply that gender is not socially constructed, if it develops out of language? How do you link together word genders (die Kunst, der Mond, das Boot) and their development with the complex development of human genders? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, so I suppose I will have to see more of your path of argumentation to determine whether I agree with this theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/#comment-3874</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lisa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The working definition presented on this entry — and this framework of theory that I will explore on Cisnormativity — disagrees with the Butlerian premise that “gender is socially constructed”. On the contrary: social order is shaped by a precedent language of gender; societ(ies) followed after the basic building blocks of gender were formalized.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is interesting! So to put it another way, perhaps society is gender-constructed? I don&#039;t think I&#039;d put it quite like that. I think that risks going back to the old argument that gender is the &quot;first&quot; or &quot;most basic&quot; order, somehow prior to other oppressions. But I think it does point to arguments made by many feminists that &lt;em&gt;this specific society and those like it&lt;/em&gt; do seem to be very fundamentally founded on the idea of division (&lt;a href=&quot;radtransfem.tumblr.com/post/46450624642/its-about-power-white-gender-is-a-dualism-not-a&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;or more accurately dualism&lt;/a&gt;). But I can&#039;t buy anything which says it&#039;s a biological (or neurological!) imperative. Where are you going with the idea?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The working definition presented on this entry — and this framework of theory that I will explore on Cisnormativity — disagrees with the Butlerian premise that “gender is socially constructed”. On the contrary: social order is shaped by a precedent language of gender; societ(ies) followed after the basic building blocks of gender were formalized.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is interesting! So to put it another way, perhaps society is gender-constructed? I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d put it quite like that. I think that risks going back to the old argument that gender is the &#8220;first&#8221; or &#8220;most basic&#8221; order, somehow prior to other oppressions. But I think it does point to arguments made by many feminists that <em>this specific society and those like it</em> do seem to be very fundamentally founded on the idea of division (<a href="radtransfem.tumblr.com/post/46450624642/its-about-power-white-gender-is-a-dualism-not-a" rel="nofollow">or more accurately dualism</a>). But I can&#8217;t buy anything which says it&#8217;s a biological (or neurological!) imperative. Where are you going with the idea?</p>
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		<title>By: rozele</title>
		<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/#comment-3873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rozele]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 07:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cisnormativity.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-3873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[intriguing.  i have some linguistic-anthropology-geek questions and skepticisms that i&#039;d be interested in hearing your thinking on, mostly having to do with what sounds to me like a reliance on ideas about language universals that are mainly useful for dealing with abstract grammars rather than actual human uses of language... 

but more urgently, it seems to me that there&#039;s a problem with part of the premise here.  

the official languages of europe&#039;s colonial powers do something unusual: they divide humans into different noun classes based on (presumed assigned-at-birth) sex.  *most languages*, however, don&#039;t have multiple noun classes at all, and a substantial number of those that do have them, don&#039;t divide humans into different ones on the basis of sex.  (it&#039;s also worth noting that neither number of noun classes nor their sex-linking in a given language corresponds particularly to the gender systems of the societies that speak it.)  

the fact that noun classes get called &quot;gender&quot; at all is a direct result of that specific characteristic of those european languages, and the racism that centers linguistics as a field of study on the languages of colonial europe.

there are some dandy maps of noun class number and sex-linking at the World Atlas of Language Structures website: &lt;a href=&quot;http://wals.info/feature/31A?s=20&amp;v1=cfff&amp;v2=cd00&amp;v3=c00d&amp;z1=2998&amp;z2=2999&amp;z3=3000&amp;tg_format=map&amp;lat=5.5&amp;lng=152.58&amp;z=2&amp;t=m&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://wals.info/feature/30A?s=20&amp;v1=cfff&amp;v2=cff0&amp;v3=cf60&amp;v4=cd00&amp;v5=c000&amp;z5=2999&amp;z4=3000&amp;z1=2996&amp;z2=2997&amp;z3=2998&amp;tg_format=map&amp;lat=5.5&amp;lng=152.58&amp;z=2&amp;t=m&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. 

now, there are plenty of ways that language does gender besides noun classes, but i&#039;m having trouble coming up with other *structural* ways, which it seems your argument requires...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>intriguing.  i have some linguistic-anthropology-geek questions and skepticisms that i&#8217;d be interested in hearing your thinking on, mostly having to do with what sounds to me like a reliance on ideas about language universals that are mainly useful for dealing with abstract grammars rather than actual human uses of language&#8230; </p>
<p>but more urgently, it seems to me that there&#8217;s a problem with part of the premise here.  </p>
<p>the official languages of europe&#8217;s colonial powers do something unusual: they divide humans into different noun classes based on (presumed assigned-at-birth) sex.  *most languages*, however, don&#8217;t have multiple noun classes at all, and a substantial number of those that do have them, don&#8217;t divide humans into different ones on the basis of sex.  (it&#8217;s also worth noting that neither number of noun classes nor their sex-linking in a given language corresponds particularly to the gender systems of the societies that speak it.)  </p>
<p>the fact that noun classes get called &#8220;gender&#8221; at all is a direct result of that specific characteristic of those european languages, and the racism that centers linguistics as a field of study on the languages of colonial europe.</p>
<p>there are some dandy maps of noun class number and sex-linking at the World Atlas of Language Structures website: <a href="http://wals.info/feature/31A?s=20&amp;v1=cfff&amp;v2=cd00&amp;v3=c00d&amp;z1=2998&amp;z2=2999&amp;z3=3000&amp;tg_format=map&amp;lat=5.5&amp;lng=152.58&amp;z=2&amp;t=m" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://wals.info/feature/30A?s=20&amp;v1=cfff&amp;v2=cff0&amp;v3=cf60&amp;v4=cd00&amp;v5=c000&amp;z5=2999&amp;z4=3000&amp;z1=2996&amp;z2=2997&amp;z3=2998&amp;tg_format=map&amp;lat=5.5&amp;lng=152.58&amp;z=2&amp;t=m" rel="nofollow">here</a>. </p>
<p>now, there are plenty of ways that language does gender besides noun classes, but i&#8217;m having trouble coming up with other *structural* ways, which it seems your argument requires&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: biyuti</title>
		<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/#comment-3872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[biyuti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 01:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I look forward to reading this. I&#039;m also curious to see if you&#039;ll account for languages like Mandarin that have no gendered inflections. That, when speaking, it is impossible to discern the gender of people (even via pronouns since all their pronouns are homophones). Although, I suppose that gendering occurs in terms of adjectives and which get applied to whom. And kinship terms are definitely gendered. 

Although, the answer to my question likely lies in the distinction (which I&#039;m not knowledgeable enough to know) between syntax-by-interlocutor, subject-directed syntax, or gendered vocal inflections. I think the latter is what I understand Mandarin to lack. Possible the second. But I&#039;m not sure about the third.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I look forward to reading this. I&#8217;m also curious to see if you&#8217;ll account for languages like Mandarin that have no gendered inflections. That, when speaking, it is impossible to discern the gender of people (even via pronouns since all their pronouns are homophones). Although, I suppose that gendering occurs in terms of adjectives and which get applied to whom. And kinship terms are definitely gendered. </p>
<p>Although, the answer to my question likely lies in the distinction (which I&#8217;m not knowledgeable enough to know) between syntax-by-interlocutor, subject-directed syntax, or gendered vocal inflections. I think the latter is what I understand Mandarin to lack. Possible the second. But I&#8217;m not sure about the third.</p>
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		<title>By: Patience Newbury</title>
		<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/#comment-3871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patience Newbury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 01:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cisnormativity.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-3871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Is my understanding correct when if I understand you to be saying that gendered inflections language (or the way genders is coded into language) depend, in some important way, on this language of gender&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes.

It was a working hypothesis entertained before further peer research supported a related idea that &lt;i&gt;spoken&lt;/i&gt; communication — the use of phonemes — appeared to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6027/346.abstract&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;have a specific locus of origin in time and place&lt;/a&gt;.  

This proposed relationship between gender-as-language &lt;i&gt;preceding&lt;/i&gt; spoken languages is tentatively supported by a prevalence of gendering noted in spoken languages across multiple linguistic families — be it syntax-by-interlocutor; subject-directed syntax; gendered vocal inflections by interlocutor; and so on.  Across these, the implementation may differ, but each is still identifiable as gendered once a listener/interlocutor has a basic command of that language&#039;s syntax.

I plan to explore this further with a peer reviewed paper.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Is my understanding correct when if I understand you to be saying that gendered inflections language (or the way genders is coded into language) depend, in some important way, on this language of gender</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>It was a working hypothesis entertained before further peer research supported a related idea that <i>spoken</i> communication — the use of phonemes — appeared to <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6027/346.abstract" rel="nofollow">have a specific locus of origin in time and place</a>.  </p>
<p>This proposed relationship between gender-as-language <i>preceding</i> spoken languages is tentatively supported by a prevalence of gendering noted in spoken languages across multiple linguistic families — be it syntax-by-interlocutor; subject-directed syntax; gendered vocal inflections by interlocutor; and so on.  Across these, the implementation may differ, but each is still identifiable as gendered once a listener/interlocutor has a basic command of that language&#8217;s syntax.</p>
<p>I plan to explore this further with a peer reviewed paper.</p>
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		<title>By: biyuti</title>
		<link>https://accozzaglia.ca/cisnormativity/critical-theory/foundation-defining-gender/#comment-3870</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[biyuti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 22:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cisnormativity.wordpress.com/?p=88#comment-3870</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I find the relationship of this hypothesis of a (possibly pre-verbal) language of gender and actual language a little murky. Is my understanding correct when if I understand you to be saying that gendered inflections language (or the way genders is coded into language) depend, in some important way, on this language of gender?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I find the relationship of this hypothesis of a (possibly pre-verbal) language of gender and actual language a little murky. Is my understanding correct when if I understand you to be saying that gendered inflections language (or the way genders is coded into language) depend, in some important way, on this language of gender?</p>
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